The Space Show
The Space Show
The Space Show focuses on timely and important issues influencing the development of outer-space commerce, space tourism,space exploration and space development. The Space Show is committed to facilitating our becoming a space-faring nation and society with a growing and self-sustaining space-faring economy. The Space Show also focuses on other related subjects of interest to us all.
Station feed:  Created by: David Livingston |
Created on: 12 May 2005 Language: English |
| << < 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 > >> | |
| Add this to another station |
Jeffrey Manber, Tuesday, 12-15-09 (49.10MB; download) -- Guest: Jeffrey Manber. Topics: Mir Space Station, Russian space capitalism, NASA, space commerce. Jeffrey Manber returned for this two part Space Show program to talk about his new Apogee book, "Selling Peace: Inside The Soviet Conspiracy That Transformed the U.S. Space Program." This book is available on the OGLF website as an Amazon partner so if you buy it through the OGLF site, Amazon makes a contribution to The Space Show. Please use
www.amazon.com/dp/1926592085?tag=onegialeafou-20. We started our first segment with Jeff telling us how he came to work for the Russian Space Agency. Not only is this story fascinating, its important background to the story of the Mir Space Station, MirCorp, and how what happened changed space for the best. This is a must listen to story. As you will hear, Jeff was there when Russia transformed from the Soviet Union to modern Russia and this included the shift to capitalism for just about everything, including space. Pay attention to the stark differences with the actions and attitudes of the Russians versus NASA. As we started the second and final segment, Jeff explained the title to the book. I'm sure you will agree after listening to Jeff, reading his book, and hearing this interview, that indeed the U.S. space program was transformed. Jeff goes into some of the major players and characters. You will hear him talk about former NASA Administrator Dan Goldin, Russian Yuri Semenov, Rick Tumlinson, Walt Anderson, Dennis Tito and others. I promise, you will have a new understanding of commercial space and the relationships that today dictate activities for the ISS, the Russians, and NASA. Later in this segment, Jeff was asked about advocacy rhetoric. He pointed out that there were three influences on space, advocacy, policy, and business, and that there were significant differences among all of them. This is a discussion you do not want to miss. We also talked about cultural differences and how important it is to understand the culture of those engaged in business with you. In particular, he told one story about the Walt Anderson $7 million phone call. Don't miss it, its a really good and very funny story. Toward the end of the program, Jeff talked about his current commercial space activities with Nanorack LLC, cubesats, and the ISS. As we concluded the interview, Jeff stressed that for the future, space programs must be commercial given what is happening economically around the world and in particular in the U.S. If you want to contact Jeffrey Manber with your comments and questions, visit www.sellingpeace.com. You can use the Contact link on the website or you can post to his blog. As always, you can send your message to Jeffrey through me at drspace@thespaceshow.com.
Selected by: David Livingston [ stations ], Wed, 16 Dec 2009 17:46:22 UTC
|
| Add this to another station |
Robert Zimmerman, Monday, 12-14-09 (54.54MB; download) -- Guest: Robert Zimmerman. Topics: Space policy, space news, commercial space, Climategate.. Robert Zimmerman returned for this end of the year wrap up Space Show program that went overtime to two hours. In our first segment, we talked about Hubble and Bob mentioned his Hubble book as a guide to see how the government works regarding policy, congress, and tax funds. His book, "Universe in a Mirror," is available at www.amazon.com/dp/0691132976?tag=onegialeafou-20. We then focused on the SpaceShip2 rollout and the initial tests it will undergo, plus the overall commercial plans for SS2 and suborbital tourism. Bob discussed the Lunar Lander contest and contests in general. Toward the end of this segment, Mr. Zimmerman talked about Augustine and I told him about the Sen. Shelby amendment attached to the budget bill that restricts the administration as to what they can do with NASA policy for 2010. In the second segment, we picked up on the Sen. Shelby amendment and Bob considered the impact of the bill on space policy, Constellation, and overall policy. We talked about funding to the tune of billions a program that would likely be cancelled in the next budget but Bob said this was how government worked. Its an interesting discussion if not heavy on the forecasting and trying to second guess congress and the administration. Bob did speak out about congress micro-managing thee space program and drew parallels to these problems from previous NASA administrations. Later in this segment he told us why he favored international competition for space programs, not cooperation. See if you agree with him. Toward the end of the segment, we talked about commercial space, using EELVs, and if government should be doing this or buying the service from the private sector. You will hear Bob push for buying these services from the private sector. We kicked off the third and final but long segment with a discussion on Space X, Dragon, and Falcon 9. We discussed human rating EELVs and the Falcon 9 and some of the differences in doing that for the various vehicles. Toward the end of this segment, Bob brought us to problems with science and used the Climategate scandal as an example. I brought up a recent article on The Space Review that even challenged NASA Earth imaging satellites to see if they had been "tweaked" as part of the faulty science that has now been revealed through this scandal. Bob and I both talked about the need to be able to trust science and the potential damage caused to all of science, government, institutions, and organizations as a result of what we now know from Climategate. Bob talked at length on this subject so you will want to hear his comments. At the end of this segment, NewSpace was stressed as one of the bright spots in the space arena as we move toward 2010. As the show was ending, I asked Bob for an update on the bat fungus that has been destroying cave bats in the northeast. For those of you following this problem, you will be interested in this short update. If you have questions or comments for Bob Zimmerman, you can find his email address near the bottom of his website, http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze3cxxp/zimbib.htm or you can forward it to me at drspace@thespaceshow.com. Selected by: David Livingston [ stations ], Tue, 15 Dec 2009 03:41:07 UTC
|
| Add this to another station |
Dr. Ray Williamson, Sunday, 12-13-09 (46.28MB; download) -- Guest: Dr. Ray Williamson. Topics: Secure World Foundation, space debris. Dr. Ray Williamson, Executive Director of the Secure World Foundation (SWF), was the guest for this Space Show program. We started segment one by asking Dr. Williamson to provide us with an overview of SWF. As you will hear, SWF is looking at the long term sustainability of outer space. One of their main interests lies in mitigating the space debris problem and we talked about this throughout today's program. Dr. Williamson summarized the increased interest in the issue by not only the United States but also by ESA, Russia, and others. A listener asked our guest about his recent congressional testimony on the Global Space Capabilities. This discussion led to our talking about the NASA budget and political priorities as reflected in the budget. A listener asked about SSP and Dr. Williamson quickly disposed of that topic. Planetary Defense was talked about and as you will hear and was a recurring theme for this show. As we moved to the second segment, we continued talking about space debris and congressional testimony. Ray said that testifying before Congress was a good example of how our system works. In response to a question about our technical readiness to mitigate space debris, he said we still need more work , we are not there yet. One of the issues about space debris is that there might be a particular intervention method that is also construed as a space weapon. Nobody knows for the sure the time table for finding solutions to the debris problem but he estimated it ranged from 10-20 years. As we started the third segment, a listener asked Ray how his work as a college professor differed from his work with SWF in for example, the issue of space debris. Ray said that in teaching, knowing the audience is important and student feedback with questions was very important. His role as Executive Director at SWF is more of an activist role. He received a listener question about the statistical likelihood of our planet getting hit by something so why should planetary defense be a major issue. Ray addressed this and you will want to hear the discussion. That said, SWF allocates about 5% of its resources to the planetary defense issue. Others such as NASA are in a more appropriate position to deal with the issue differently and with more resources. Also in this segment, we talked about space policy issues, Ray's thoughts on Augustine, and we asked him for a look forward for SWF and 2010. Don't miss what he had to say about the upcoming year. To find out more about the Secure World Foundation, visit their website at www.secureworldfounation.org. For general information on SWF, please email info@swfound.org. If you have a question or comment for Dr. Ray Williamson, please email him at rwilliamson@swfound.org. To see Dr. Williamson's paper, please visit http://www.secureworldfoundation.org/index.php?id=167&page=Staff_publications_and_interviews#ray. Selected by: David Livingston [ stations ], Mon, 14 Dec 2009 16:19:05 UTC
|
| Add this to another station |
Dr. John Olds, Friday, 12-11-09 (109.85MB; download) -- Guest: Dr. John Olds. Topic: Point to Pont space transportation. Dr. John Olds, Executive Director of the FastForward Study Group, was our guest today to talk about point to point space travel or high altitude and very fast transportation. In our first segment, Dr. Olds defined point to point high speed transportation. He talked about being able to go west, not just east, about using Great Circle Routes, and various city pairs that his group has been studying. We also talked about ballistic trajectories as well as partial and orbital trajectories and going west from the Northern Hemisphere. Toward the end of this segment, a listener inquired about the Blackswift project that was cancelled. Dr. Olds further commented that the NASA focus has clearly moved to human spaceflight, but that the Air Force was still working on some projects, including X-51. As we ended this segment, our guest pointed out the new commercial push, including a push for the RLV which would be a very positive addition to point to point high speed space transportation. In our second segment, we talked about the supersonic business jets under development, how they minimize the sonic boom, their problems, speeds, and the regulatory environment that today would prevent these vehicles from flying across the United States and other areas. Dr. Olds explained some of the differences in flying supersonic, exoatmospheric and through space, ballistic and orbital. The FastForward group is looking at the various technologies and regulations that exist and would need to be modified to facilitate point to point high speed travel. In our third segment, we continued talking about supersonic business jets and learned that their estimated cost was between $80 and $100 million. The estimated cost for a hypersonic was $325 million. Development costs for the SST biz jet was around $2 billion while for the hypersonic, the development cost was estimated at $5 billion. Wealth building and job creation came into the picture given development of these projects have the potential to include public money or a public private partnership. Later in the segment, Dr. Olds suggested a commercial transportation ticket might cost upwards of $6,000 and for sending a package on one of these vehicles for same day or really quick delivery, it might be as much as $800/kg. Dr. Olds talked about the need for an arms length market study to confirm the existence of commercial markets in these areas. A listener asked about competition from video conferencing and we talked about the market for the need for face to face meetings. As we moved into the fourth and final segment, Dr. Olds pointed us to the FastForward website,
www.spaceworkscommercial.com/projects/fastforward. Make sure you read the White Paper entitled, "Getting Faster," www.sei.aero/eng/papers/uploads/archive/FF_Getting_Faster_Oct2009.pdf. Once on their website, you will see many other reports and documents that are available and that you will find interesting. Dr. John Olds talked about debris patterns and fields for various spaceports and again stressed the need for a market study. Toward the end of the program, he talked about ITAR issues and customs requirements that probably need modification upon landing in another country. If you have a question or comment for Dr. John Olds, please contact him at john.olds@sei.aero.
Selected by: David Livingston [ stations ], Sat, 12 Dec 2009 17:50:50 UTC
|
| Add this to another station |
Peter Sage, Tuesday, 12-8-09 (51.71MB; download) -- Guest: Peter Sage. Topics: Space Solar Power (SSP), the business case for SSP. Peter Sage, a leading and well-known international entrepreneur and a Director and Principal of Space Energy was a guest for this show from Dubai. You can find out more about our guest and his company by visiting www.spaceenergy.com. Our almost two hour program was divided in two segments but because our discussion points and themes crossed over the segments, this review will not be broken down by segment. There was only one break leaving the last segment about 75 minutes in length. As we started the program, Mr. Sage put forth the case for SSP and its potential. He talked about his preliminary due diligence and the feedback received from many different sources which indicated that the technology was not the issue. Instead, closing the business case was the issue. Do not miss this discussion. As he discovered, the key economic factor, the key economic metric was the kilogram per kilowatt ratio which is impacted by launch costs. As you will hear, by going to Thin Film Photo Voltaics, they improve efficiency, lower mass, and increase deployment size, thus they effectively lower launch costs. We continued this discussion into the second segment because we asked Peter what to took to make a quality presentation before business people to obtain capital. I urge all listeners to pay careful attention to what Peter Sage had to say about this. Its instructive for us all. In addition, his focus on solid due diligence, the business and management team and the understanding that he is working an energy company that uses space rather than a space company is very important. Also note that Peter did not come to this as a space person or a true believer in SSP. Again, this is an important distinction. Terrestrial power issues were discussed, political policy and social engineering were discussed, as well as solid economics and market solutions. Timing for SSP deployment was a focus of this discussion and as you will hear, all important. In the context of timing, his response to listener questions was on the basis of buying down the risk and cost reduction versus market and early competitive advantage. At the end of this program, Peter asked a series of questions that you will hear along with my response, all of which lead one to a rational conclusion that SSP is an important part of our future energy mix, not the entire part as Peter Sage certainly says we need all tools of energy development to address the energy issues we as a global society are going to be facing in the future. In fact he references the excellent energy study done by Mike Snead who spoke about his study on The Space Show on Jan. 9, 2009. You can hear Mike's interview about his comprehensive energy study at http://archived.thespaceshow.com/shows/1086-BWB-2009-01-09.mp3. When visiting www.spaceenery.com, subscribe to their free newsletter. You can also hear Peter's TED presentation which is well worth your hearing, plus there are other important SSP technical and business presentations and materials on this website. If you have a comment or question for Peter Sage, you can use the contact page at http://www.spaceenergy.com/Terrestrial/contact or send your note to our guest per the address on this page. Please reference The Space Show in the subject line. Selected by: David Livingston [ stations ], Wed, 09 Dec 2009 16:37:29 UTC
|
| Add this to another station |
Samantha Snabes, Jason Aranha, Monday, 12-7-09 (43.84MB; download) -- Guests: Samantha Snabes, Jason Aranha. Topics: Go Boldly Campaign, human spaceflight, NASA. Our program today focused on the Go Boldly Campaign started by young aerospace industry professionals to urge our elected representatives to provide increased funding for NASA's human spaceflight programs. Our guests, Samantha Snabes and Jason Aranha, both part of the Go Boldly Campaign in Houston, were with us to talk about this program and their respective perspectives on space development, NewSpace, NASA and our civil space program, and human spaceflight. In our first segment our guests told us about the Go Boldly organization that has about 45 members. You can visit their website and send a letter to your member of congress by going to www.goboldlynasa.org. Copy and paste their letter for your own letter to your representative. We talked about space exploration as well as the NASA science missions. Listeners asked our guests many STEM education related programs. Each guest was asked how they got into their space career. As you will hear, Jason came from Brazil where he said there was not much of a space awareness in his country so his interest came about once he was in the U.S. Samantha said she was from an underserved environment but met key people that helped her along the way with her education and more. I am sure you will find their stories fascinating as they demonstrate how one can go for a space career regardless of their environment or background. In segment two, we talked about the outreach efforts of our guests, both with the Go Boldly program as well as in their own lives to promote and discuss space development. Samantha and Jason talked about speaking with Members of Congress, even visiting their offices, along with their student outreach efforts. In segment three, we led off with our guests telling us about their social networking with Facebook and Twitter. If you are interested in following Go Boldly with these networks, note their instructions for finding them on each service. Jason spoke about the focus of NASA to explore and go to points that the private sector cannot go to at this time. Samantha talked about routine space missions which is what Earth to LEO is becoming and we all agreed that NASA should be focusing on the missions that are not routine. We talked about Ares 1 and also converting EELV to human spaceflight so you will want to hear this discussion. As the segment came to its close, Jason talked about his vision for space and Samantha talked about space benefits. NewSpace and suborbital space tourism came up and as you will hear, our guests stay in touch with and are very supportive of NewSpace. In fact as you will hear, Samantha's boss was at Mojave for the unveiling of SS2 today. If you want to find out more about Go Boldly or send an email question or comment to either of our guests, do so using info@goboldlynasa.org. Please reference The Space Show in the subject line. Selected by: David Livingston [ stations ], Tue, 08 Dec 2009 03:58:19 UTC
|
| Add this to another station |
Dr. Marshall Kaplan, Sunday, 12-6-09 (44.50MB; download) -- Guest: Dr. Marshall Kaplan. Topics: Augustine, space shuttle, ISS, commercial space, orbital debris, Launchspace classes. Dr. Marshall Kaplan was our guest on The Space Show for this program which covered launch vehicles, the commercial space industry, space policy, debris removal, and Launchspace.com classes. In our first segment, we discussed some of the finding by the Augustine Commission and talked about the likely flight profile for Ares 1 and Ares 5 and inquired about heavy lift. Commercial space, EELV and NASA budgets weighed heavily on this discussion which you do not want to miss as its comprehensive. Dr. Kaplan further talked about flying the shuttle for five more years and the need to keep ISS going and how to use it more effectively. Our guest also focused on the gap regarding a period without U.S. human spaceflight and that is a serious problem. We started the second segment by learning how to reduce the cost of shuttle launches by privatizing shuttle operations and selling the flights to NASA and others on a commercial basis. Listen to his plan and see what you think. The issue of NASA and aerospace industry job loss came up, especially along the Space Coast, so we talked about the space labor market now and in the future. Note that there is a serious lack of quality and exciting programs in the pipeline so there is a huge gap regarding the best use of space labor. During this segment, Dr. Kaplan outlined his preferred approach to civil space policy. Don't miss it! As we started the third and final segment, we focused on orbital debris. This is a comprehensive discussion that you should listen to as its important. Among the many important things said during this segment, Marshall pointed out the danger or red zone for debris is from 600 to 1100 KM. It is the biggest zone of concern. Listen to the discussion to find out why and what he had to say about other space altitudes, and how debris can be managed. We even talked about developing commercial businesses to undertake the problem but as you will hear, getting governments involved in this issue is not clear cut, easy, or widespread. As Dr. Kaplan said, figuring out how and who should pay for debris mitigation is a huge question. Toward the end of this segment, Dr. Kaplan talked about some of his upcoming classes that he teaches through Launchspace. Please visits www.launchspace.com for class information and more details about Dr. Kaplan and his work. If you have a question or comment for Dr. Marshall Kaplan or want to find out about his classes, please email him at mhk@launchspace.com.
Selected by: David Livingston [ stations ], Mon, 07 Dec 2009 16:26:10 UTC
|
| Add this to another station |
Brian Horais, Friday, 12-4-09 (60.83MB; download) -- Guest: Brian Horais. Topics: Secondary payloads, R& D and testing, EELV payload margins. Brian Horais was our guest today for this program. I suggest you read his recent Space Review article which was the basis for this program. You can find it at www.thespacereview.com/article/1489/1. In our first segment, Brian spoke about our space industry and its leadership challenges. He talked about risk taking, becoming too risk averse and the need for testing in space which is not done to a large degree because of the high costs and the risks involved.. The U.S. lack of innovation came up as did information on how foreign launch operations handle these issues. This brought us to the subject of secondary payloads on existing launchers and we learned that many of our EELV launches fly with excess margins because we have a mindset against secondary payloads. Brian told about the very successful Ariane ASAP program and suggested we need a program similar to it. In our second session, our guest talked about earlier programs for small payload launches, the RASCAL program for example, an F$ Phantom program, etc. A caller provided some information on his ideas in solving this problem. Brian also told us about his previous efforts to bring these issues to the attention of policy makers. Don't miss what he had to say about this. We talked about ESA and educational support as compared to NASA. In his Space Review article, Brian outlines several steps he believes would help improve the situation. We began discussing these steps at the beginning of the next segment. As we started the third segment, Brian went through his suggestions from Page 2 of his article. I suggest you read and review them. One of the ideas suggested was extensive research in the Van Allen Belts and this was discussed throughout both this and the next segment. You will want to hear this discussion. As we moved into the final segment, we talked more about testing and about the Ariane Vega small launcher program. A listener asked about suborbital as a path to orbital or a facilitator to orbital. Don't miss what our guest had to say about this. Brian repeated his message to get the word out and to keep working the issue so policy makers and businesses see the opportunity secondary payloads and low cost testing. If you want to send Brian Horais a question or comment, please use bhorais@comcast.net. Selected by: David Livingston [ stations ], Fri, 04 Dec 2009 23:52:22 UTC
|
| Add this to another station |
Howard Bloom, Tuesday, 12-1-09 (52.85MB; download) -- Guest: Howard Bloom. Topics: Space development, re-vision of capitalism, SSP, unlimited space resources. Howard Bloom returned for this nearly two hour program (without a break) to discuss his new book, "The Genius Of The Beast: A Radical Re-Vision Of Capitalism." This book is available on the One Giant Leap Foundation (OGLF) Amazon Partners webpage so if you buy it, please do so here so Amazon will contribute to The Space Show. For purchase, use
www.amazon.com/dp/1591027543?tag=onegialeafou-20. We started our discussion with Howard giving us an introduction to his book beginning with trade from early Venice, the use of cotton and porcelain, new sailing ships, and finding trade routes to China that bypassed the traditional routes that included land caravans and more. His point in this discussion was to show that those nations that don't evolve, bring in new markets, new technology, and new ways of doing things parish over time. Developing and using space by the United States was what he was talking about, especially when he introduced energy to us. This brought us to the need for SSP which we discussed many times during this program. His new book is a world civilization, history book that shows how to keep capitalism developing, evolving, and vibrantly alive. One of the important themes throughout this program and Howard's presentation was the need to look up, not down. He told several stories that you will hear that illustrate the necessity to look up. One story focused on dinosaurs and you will love it. Later in the show, he used his earlier work, associations, and friendships with Michael Jackson and others to drive home his points around vision, looking up, and more. Sustainability was discussed and again, if you want a copy of his 2006 Yale graduation speech titled "Screw Sustainability," please send me an email and I will send it to you. We talked about the need for quality STEM and history education. A listener asked about bureaucracies and this is a discussion you must hear. Howard told another great story about O2 at one time in our history being a poison in response to those claims that carbon and other elements and bacterium in our lives are toxics. He said the key is not to just realize they are today a poison or a toxic, but instead to learn to use these materials as a positive. Don't miss this important discussion. Howard pointed out that the eco movement, as important as it is, is the opposite of expanding and moving forward using space and space resources. This was discussed in various ways throughout this show and its important to hear what Howard Bloom says about this subject and movement. Even the famous Earth-rise photo and Earth Day. His book points out the need to take the soul of a business to the market, to the customer to provide what people want and to give back to the customer, the user, the buyer. He turns current models upside down and again, we associated this approach and change in perception with the need to look up, go to space, develop space, and tap space for its resources. Howard and I both agreed that at this time the West and the United States is fighting for its survival. What Howard talks about in his book is a path to continued growth, wealth development, forward progress and as you hear me say on several programs, the solution to many of our problems goes through space and Howard agreed. Listen to this show and read his book. Let him know what you think. Howard can be reached through his Facebook account by searching for him or use HowBloom. You can find him on Twitter by using HowardXBloom. Questions and comments can always be forwarded through me at drspace@thespaceshow.com.
Selected by: David Livingston [ stations ], Wed, 02 Dec 2009 16:04:34 UTC
|
| Add this to another station |
Wayne White, Monday, 11-30-09 (54.27MB; download) -- Guest: Wayne White. Topics: Space law and policy, orbital debris, space property rights. Wayne White, noted space attorney, returned for this nearly two hour Space Show program. In our first segment, Wayne mentioned the importance for young people pursuing a career in space law and policy. This was a recurring theme throughout today's program. Wayne then offered an update regarding the issue of space debris and current mitigation efforts. He started out listing several recent events including the January 2007 Chinese shoot down of its own satellite at 537 miles up creating about 100,000 pieces of debris. On Feb. 20, 2008, the U.S. Navy shot down our own satellite 130 miles up with most debris burning up in the atmosphere. The third event was Feb. 10, 2009 with the Iridium and Cosmos satellite collision 461 miles up, an event totally missed by the Space Surveillance Network. Toward the end of this segment, Wayne started discussing liability issues regarding these events and other possible space events. In our second segment, our guest said space law really got started with the 1957 Sputnik launch and that it was similar to the law of the High Seas. Mr. White then referenced Articles 9 and 6 of the Outer Space Treaty. He also summarized all the five UN space treaties. He talked about how the U.S. has taken the lead in debris mitigation and that NASA was actually the first to develop debris guidelines, most of which are in the U.S. Government Standard of Practices. He summarized several of the general principles and highlighted the final solution which is Direct Retrieval. You definitely want to hear this discussion. Space Traffic Control was discussed and he directed us to an important AST website so have your pencil ready when listening to his comments. In our third segment, we continued talking about space traffic control and law, plus Wayne focused on educational paths for becoming a space attorney. We talked about the ISS Agreement which is known as the Intergovernmental Agreement (IGA). In responding to a listener question, Wayne talked about space property right. This is an important discussion and it you may be surprised as to how Wayne White suggested we deal with the issue of space property rights and what it might mean for facilitating commercial space development. Regulation and policy were major issues in this discussion, including taking positive steps such as Zero G Zero Tax. He concluded today's show by appealing to people to study to be a space lawyer and to study space law and policy. If you have comments or questions for Wayne White, please send them to me at drspace@thespaceshow.com for forwarding to Mr. White. Selected by: David Livingston [ stations ], Tue, 01 Dec 2009 15:23:51 UTC
|
| << < 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 > >> | |